Are you dying inside? (Part 2c7) 4

 in Bible

Dear Friends,

Are non-Christians capable of real love? Spoiler alert: Yes.

Series Outline:

Part 2 Outline:

Every one that loveth is born of God. Yes, everyone.

If you love other people, then you are already born again. Pretty simple concept, right?

[1Jo 4:7 KJV] 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and EVERY ONE THAT LOVETH IS BORN OF GOD.

My takeaway: People all over the world, throughout all ages, of all religions, all tribes, all colors, flawed though they may be, if they show love to their fellow human beings, they are already born of God. They are loved by God and they are going to heaven.

Cool.

The shell game, the tic-tac-toe game, or the chess game?

Basically, I’m saying this verse doesn’t require a lot of detailed cogitation to understand. I’m suggesting to you that in this case, the plain meaning basically matches the intended meaning.

However, a big theme on this blog is that for many verses, the plain meaning is not the intended meaning. And I would say this applies to John 3:16, which is why we are 10 posts into a series centering around John 3:16. I’m trying to make it abundantly clear that the intent of John 3:16 is very different from the simplistic, popular interpretation you hear so often.

So you may naturally ask…how do I know which verses to use the plain meaning of, and which verses need to be more carefully deconstructed?

In other words, is TheFormOfTheFourth trying to trick me (like a shell game), or is he just completely confused himself (like a dead-end tic-tac-toe game), or is he actually presenting logical, Biblically consistent theology that will actually get me somewhere (like a chess game)?

Good question. If you really want to know the answer, you are going to have make some sacrifices, my friend. You’re going to have to sacrifice some of your free time and dig into these verses yourself. You are going to have to pray about this. You are going to have to honestly take stock of what vested interests (emotional, financial, etc.) you may have in your own belief system. And I need to do the same thing when evaluating the teachings of others.

A tale of two breakdowns

Let’s talk a little more about vetting proposed interpretations, because this is so important to understand.

One principle to keep in mind (please bear with me through the short theoretical part and I promise we will get to some concrete examples): when you see someone deconstructing a “hard” passage, is the only justification for their breakdown of the passage the fact that it makes the passage harmonize with the plain meaning of other passages? Or, by contrast, is there added justification in the sense that, even though they are rejecting the plain meaning of the passage in question, the breakdown that they do advance has some linguistic precedent in other passages in the Bible and/or everyday speech?

For example…as I wrote in the very first post in this Are You Dying Inside? series (1), “world” in John 3:16 is not intended to be taken at face value, i.e., it’s not intended to refer to every human being that ever existed. I reject the simplistic interpretation of the word “world” in this John 3:16.

But I reject it not simply because I need to force John 3:16 to fit with the plain meaning of other passages that align more closely with my beliefs…no, I have the added justification that (as I showed with many verses) “world” in the Bible and in everyday speech can mean many things besides every human being that ever lived. So there is ample precedent for a more nuanced interpretation of that word.

As a negative example, consider this passage:

[Rom 8:29-30 KJV] 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

To me this passage means that God preemptively established an intimate relationship (“foreknew”, like when Adam “knew” Eve, thus making her pregnant) with a group of people and then did a bunch of wonderful things for them. But other Christians interpret it as “God looked into the future to gain information about (‘to foreknow’) everyone who ever lived. He could see who would accept him and he chose those people to be saved. Everybody had a chance and God simply anticipated who would make the right decision and he predestinated them to heaven.”

This might make the passage align better with the plain meaning of John 3:16…but that’s all it does. In other words, I’m unconvinced because I know of no other passage in the Bible where the following conditions simultaneously occur:

  • “Foreknow” is used
  • It has a person or group of people as its direct object
  • Based on the context, it is clear that the intended direct object is actually much, much broader than the stated object
  • Based on the context, it is clear that rather than the stated context of an interpersonal relationship, the intended context is more related to information about someone rather than relationship with someone

So, I reject this interpretation because I don’t see any precedent for it. All I see is that it might allow us to use the plain meaning of John 3:16. I need more than that to be convinced.

I would rather believe the doctrine that harmonizes the “hard” passages with the “plain” passages by more carefully parsing the “hard” passages based on linguistic precedents established in other passages and in everyday speech.

Yes, it takes work to get through this stuff….but it wouldn’t be the first time you gained something valuable through hard work and sacrifice, now would it? 🙂

Here is what I beg you not to do: don’t throw up your hands and walk away from the Bible just because there are false teachers and confused teachers out there.

Filthy rags or a memorial before God?

So, I’m not the only one who has discovered this verse 🙂

I read another Christian’s blog which said that non-Christians “can’t show Christ-like love”.

Here is his explanation:

“By Christ-like I don’t mean feeding the homeless, donating to charity, or doing something nice for people. These things are good, but if they are not done to glorify God, then, according to Isaiah, they are filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). We are called to do good works, because God has prepared us to do them (Eph. 2:7-10), but not to do them for their own sake, but for God’s sake.” (2)

My response? First of all, I commend him for laboring to spread the message of Jesus Christ to the world. But, sadly, I believe the Jesus he is proclaiming doesn’t match the Scriptures in some important ways.

To wit: Cornelius was not a Christian and he did good things for poor people and this pleased God (“a memorial before God”), so it couldn’t have been filthy rags, so it must have been love. So non-Christians can love other people in a I John 4:7 sense:

[1Jo 4:7 KJV] 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and EVERY ONE THAT LOVETH IS BORN OF GOD.

And since tons of non-Christian people show love to others, that means tons of non-Christian people are born of God. So they are going to heaven and they will celebrate Jesus Christ the Lord together for all time. See why I’m excited about this?

Cornelius was not a Christian

Before I try to prove that Cornelius showed real love, in a I John 4:7 sense, I want to show that he was not a Christian. If you’re not familiar with the story in Acts chapter 10, Cornelius was a centurion who obeyed God and prayed and was loved by all. He was a Gentile, but he got along famously with the Jews in Caesarea. Here’s why I don’t believe he was a Christian before Peter arrived:

[Act 10:25 KJV] 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him].

To my Christian readers: when was the last time you fell down and worshipped somebody who was not Jesus Christ? Have you ever done that?

Sure, all sin is a form of idolatry, but this situation is different. Cornelius publicly and explicitly attributed some form of deity to Peter. Maybe a Christian can get so covetous that money becomes his God. Such a Christian does not, however, wave hundred dollar bills in the air and yell out in church, “this is my God!” You would be too ashamed to do that. Cornelius was not ashamed at all because he really thought, for whatever reason, that Peter was God or some kind of demigod. Cornelius was not a Christian.

By the way, Cornelius did not fall down and worship because he thought Peter was Jesus Christ. I disagree with that argument preemptively. My evidence is:

[Act 10:5-6, 25 KJV] 5 And now send men to Joppa, and CALL FOR [one] SIMON, whose surname is PETER: 6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. … 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him].

So the angel told him from the get-go that his special visitor was going to be Peter, not Jesus…yet he fell down and worshipped him. This shows Cornelius’s deeply confused, non-Christian theology.

Also, I don’t offer this up as absolute proof, because lack of evidence is not proof of a lack, but…keep in mind that there is not one verse in the chapter that says that Cornelius had already accepted Jesus Christ as his savior, or that he believed Jesus was God. The closest thing I see (and this falls far short) is verse 37 where Peter says that “ye” know the word of the gospel. “Ye” is plural, so it does not necessarily include Cornelius….and even if it does, all that means is that Cornelius had heard the gospel. Big difference between hearing about something and accepting it. By the way, one reason  he may not have previously accepted it was because he had not yet heard it preached directly to him, a Gentile.

So, Cornelius was not a Christian.

There’s no way around it…we’re going to need to define love

We’ve proved Cornelius wasn’t a Christian, so now we need to examine whether he showed love in the I John 4:7 sense. So, we need a Biblical definition of love. I’m going to define it as good actions + good will.

Here is where I get the “good actions” part:

[Jhn 14:15 KJV] 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[Jhn 15:13 KJV] 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[1Jo 3:18 KJV] 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

The verses above make it very clear that true love will express itself via actions. However, the verses below make it clear that love is not the same thing as action. It encompasses the will/motive as well. In other words, here is where I get the “good will” part of my love=good actions+good will equation (the English word “charity” is used here but it has the same Greek root as love in I John 4:7):

[1Co 13:3-7 KJV] 3 And THOUGH I BESTOW ALL MY GOODS TO FEED [THE POOR], and though I give my body to be burned, AND HAVE NOT CHARITY, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity ENVIETH NOT; charity vaunteth not itself, is NOT PUFFED UP, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, THINKETH NO EVIL; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, BELIEVETH ALL THINGS, HOPETH ALL THINGS, endureth all things.

I capitalized several phrases that show that love is NOT merely action…it relates to your mind and your heart as well (“thinketh no evil”, “is not puffed up”, etc.).

Of special relevance is the first verse in the above passage, where it says that giving alms without having love profits you nothing. We need to keep that in mind as we examine this Cornelius character. Obviously he was doing good actions (that’s half of our love equation), but what about his motive?

Computer: Magnify 5x!

If you will allow me, dear reader, I want to discuss one more thing before we move on to Cornelius’s motive. I want to zoom in on a verse I quoted higher up:

[1Jo 3:18 KJV] 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

First of all, notice that this verse is only one chapter prior to the verse of the day (I John 4:7), so this should be given special weight during the current discussion we are having. Notice what it says: “in deed and in truth”. I wonder if that’s basically the same thing as the love equation I mentioned higher up: love=good actions+good will.

In other words, the “truth” in “in deed and in truth” refers to your motive or your sincerity. Sure, you did a good deed for someone, but were you “truly” trying to help them or was it part of your evil master plan? Were you just trying to show off to other people or were you truly just seeking to contribute to someone else’s well being? OK….let’s put this Cornelius character under the microscope.

Not all alms are created equal

So what does the Bible say about this non-Christian Cornelius character?

[Act 10:1-4 KJV] 1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian [band], 2 [A] devout [man], and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and THINE ALMS ARE COME UP FOR A MEMORIAL BEFORE GOD.

Is it safe to say his alms pleased God, given that they came “up for a memorial before God”? Yes, we are aware that sometimes people do good things for bad reasons. Here is God’s take on another group of people who were giving alms:

[Mat 6:1-4 KJV] 1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, THAT THEY MAY HAVE GLORY OF MEN. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Oops. Looks like God was not pleased with some of the alms he was receiving.

Question: Would Jesus describe the alms given by these hypocrites as “a memorial before God”? Please say no.

Can you see that God’s attitude toward alms is heavily influenced by the motive of the giver?

In other words, as I said before, someone must have the right motives in order to show love in the Biblical sense.

And when I see that it came “up for a memorial before God”, that tells me that not only did Cornelius do the right thing, he also had the right motive.

So, Cornelius did good actions (to help other people) with a good motive.

So, Cornelius showed real Biblical love.

Put another way: going back to I Corinthians 13:3, it says that if you give alms but don’t have charity, it profits you nothing. So I ask you: did Cornelius’s alms which came “up for a memorial before God” profit him or not?

My dear Christian friend: if your doctrine is such that you cannot accept that Cornelius loved people in a I John 4:7 sense before he became a Christian, then please consider the possibility that you made a wrong turn somewhere in your journey through Biblical theology. Remember, God allows U turns 🙂

Now, about those rags

I don’t like rejecting someone’s Biblical reasoning without directly addressing the passage that he uses. The blogger mentioned Isaiah 64:6, so let’s quote that verse with a couple extra verses for context:

[Isa 64:5-7 KJV] 5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, [those that] remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as FILTHY RAGS; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 7 And [there is] none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. 

Read verse 6 carefully. Do you think it logically follows from that verse that only believers can show Christ-like love? I don’t see it.

First, this is an Old Testament verse, so I’m not sure what we would mean by “believers”. Does this mean faithful Jews in the Old Testament could show Christ-like love, but faithful Jews in the New Testament who had not yet heard the gospel no longer had this ability?

Secondly, Isaiah says all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Let’s just consider Isaiah to be a believer for this discussion, since he did prophesy a lot about Jesus Christ. So, here’s a believer saying his righteousnesses are as filthy rags. He’s not applying this specifically to unbelievers….he’s including himself! So, whatever point he is making about the filthy rags, it’s not something limited to unbelievers. Now if you are going to argue that his point was that unbelievers never show real love, and believers only sometimes show real love, I’m going to ask you to provide Scripture that more directly makes the point you are trying to make.

I’m not really well-studied on this passage. But I can still ask questions about how to get from this passage to the claim that unbelievers can never show Christ-like love.

Also, I would like to suggest some ideas about what this passage really means, although I hold these ideas loosely. Remembering that “filthy rags” is already figurative language, maybe the “all” is also figurative. In other words, there are actually some good things Isaiah has done, with good motives, but in light of all the wrong that he has done it is not even worth mentioning the good he has done. Maybe Isaiah is trying to take a divine view (but without looking through the lens of Christ’s substitutionary death) of his own track record. Maybe he’s trying to be extra respectful with God in this exchange, in order to obtain mercy for himself and his kin.

It must have been love

So, I hopefully proved that even before Cornelius was a Christian, he was truly loving people, in a I John 4:7 sense.

[1Jo 4:7 KJV] 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

He did good things for other people, and he had the right motive. Therefore, according to I John 4:7, Cornelius was already born again before Peter showed up. When Cornelius gave alms to the people, the primary motivators were not establishing his own merit to get into heaven (God does not accept this), nor was it to impress the people around him (God hates this). No, the Bible says his alms came up “for a memorial before God”.

So, it must have been love.

What should we do with all these non-Christian people across the sands of time who loved their neighbors? Let’s admit (without denying the reality of hell) that, based on I  John 4:7, there are born again people everywhere….even if they are not professing Christians.

So, there are born again people who have not heard the gospel. So, John 3:16 cannot mean that you get born again by believing in Jesus.

I.E.: John 3:16 cannot mean that dead people are supposed to “believe” anything.

I.E.: John 3:16 cannot mean what you’ve been told.

Is there a non-Christian in your life who sometimes shows charity to other people? Instead of telling them they need to know Jesus in order to get saved from hell, tell them that their loving Father is calling them home…and he’s got a party ready.

Links:

(1) Are you dying inside?

(2) Are unbelievers capable of love?

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4 thoughts on “Are you dying inside? (Part 2c7)”

  • Reply ↓
    Phil

    I’m sorry, but any argument that people can be saved and go to heaven, that bypasses knowing the gospel, bypasses Jesus dying on the cross for their sins, and bypasses repenting of your sins, is a false gospel. The Bible is very clear that it is a narrow road that leads to heaven. Jesus is the only way, truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but through Him.

    • Reply ↓
      TFOTF Post author

      Dear Phil,

      Thank you so much for commenting on the blog! Agree or disagree, it’s so nice when this blog can be a conversation starter.

      Also, I have a lot of personal respect for you, and I know you have spent a lot of time studying the Bible. So I am very interested to hear your perspective.

      I strongly agree with you on this: bypassing “Jesus dying on the cross” for our sins creates a false gospel. Can you please point me to where I bypassed Jesus dying on the cross for our sins? Honestly…I would be horrified if someone read my blog and went away thinking that Jesus did not need to die to save from us from our sins.

      I want to try to reassure you and anyone who’s reading this: Christ’s death is absolutely essential for anybody to go to heaven. Everyone Christ died for will go to heaven, and all the people he didn’t die for will go to hell.

      Here is a direct quote from the 2nd post I ever put up on this blog:
      https://www.theformofthefourth.com/2017/03/28/doves-eyes/
      “The payment for the sins of the elect was made by Jesus on the cross, not by the elect themselves”

      Here is a direct quote from the third post (included a verse reference this time):
      https://www.theformofthefourth.com/2017/04/17/3-2-1-blastoff/
      “The payment for the sins of the elect was made by Jesus on the cross, not by the elect themselves (I John 4:10)”

      Here is the crucifixion section that I wrote as part of my “Got milk?” post. This should prove that I consider the crucifixion to be a part of bedrock, fundamental Christianity, because that’s what that post was about. Milk, not meat.
      https://www.theformofthefourth.com/2017/06/10/got-milk/
      “The crucifixion

      I’m going to make an exception for this one. There are a billion verses about this, and I’m not going to paste any in here (nor at the end of the post) because this post is already really long! Just read the last few chapters of each of the four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John), and you can also find many prophetic verses about it in the Old Testament, and retrospective verses in the New Testament. I’m mentioning the crucifixion, though, because it is very easy to understand, very clearly and consistently documented in the Bible, and makes a profound point about Jesus’s love for us. After all, Jesus said:

      John 15:13

      Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

      The crucifixion is a pretty straightforward concept, and it is important to reflect on it every day of your life. It reminds me that Jesus loves me when I face rejection from others. It reminds me that Jesus loves me when I feel like I am a failure. It assures me that Jesus understands how it feels when I suffer. It makes me more willing to sacrifice for others. It helps me to make peace (if not to completely tie up in a bow) with the problem of evil.

      The crucifixion is a never-ending supply of nourishment for your soul. Whether you will admit it or not, you need it. Badly. So, may I humbly suggest that you stop making this so complicated (I say this as a master overcomplicator) and simply drink it in? If your answer is no, I would honestly love to know why 🙂”

      That’s the end of the crucifixion section that I wrote. So, the crucifixion is an essential part of Christianity and it is an essential, necessary, mandatory part of God’s plan of salvation. And I have said that on my blog more than once already. But I’m happy to proclaim it again 🙂

      Now, if you are claiming that some other statements on my blog logically imply that Christ’s death is not necessary for salvation, I would like to know more about that as well. Please explain that chain of logic to me. How did I implicitly bypass the crucifixion?

      As far as “knowing the gospel”. I want to first make sure everyone realizes that I do want the world to know the gospel (well you’re calling it a “false gospel”, but be that as it may). I am spending my free time on this blog, without making any money off of it. I have Arminians, Calvinists, Hindus, atheists, undeclared, perhaps a Muslim or Buddhist, etc. subscribed to this blog. I want to tell them all about how great Jesus is, and then keep reminding them!

      But if you are accusing me of saying that you do not have to physically hear the preached (or read the written) gospel of Jesus Christ and consciously assent to it and then repent of your sins in order to be saved, I stand guilty as charged. And I would offer the account of Cornelius, which was the subject of the latest blog post 2c7, as proof of that. I cannot accept that he was a depraved sinner, given all the things that are said about him before Peter shows up. I don’t think you can reconcile that with the description of man’s depravity in Romans 3 and Romans 1. And yet….he was not a Christian before Peter showed up, which is why he worshiped Peter when he arrived. Don’t know exactly what his religion was, but it sure as spitfire wasn’t Christianity.

      I don’t understand how I John 4:7 conforms to your beliefs. People who love one another are born of God. If you want to deny that this verse means there are non-Christian people who are born of God, then you have to prove that non-Christians cannot show love in a I John 4:7 sense. I tried to use Cornelius to show that non-Christians can, in fact, show I John 4:7 love. I would be interested in your take on that specific argument.

      The narrow road:
      [Mat 7:14 KJV] 14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

      I don’t think this is talking about getting to heaven. I think a good example of this verse is Caleb and Joshua. The only two adult escapees from Egypt who made it to Canaan. It’s not talking about heaven and hell. Can you prove it is talking about heaven and hell? If you want to prove it’s talking about heaven and hell, I would be interested to hear how you reconcile “few there be that find it” with:
      [Rev 5:9 KJV] 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
      or with:
      [Rev 15:2 KJV] 2 And I saw as it were a SEA [as opposed to the lake of fire in Revelation 20 and 21….a sea is bigger than a lake!] of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
      or with
      [2Pe 2:7-8 KJV] 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;) [Even Lot was a just and righteous man according to Scripture, so he must have gone to heaven….doesn’t seem like a very narrow gate to me]

      Jesus is the only way to heaven….we are totally agreed on that. But we disagree on what’s included in the salvation package. I believe that regeneration is included in the package (and I believe that regeneration does affect people, it give them a conscience, and a desire to love other people). You believe that regeneration as well as explicitly Christian discipleship are absolutely included (but it seems you make ad hoc exceptions for people who die in infancy, and mentally handicapped people, which is another thing that makes me skeptical). Everyone who is elect will inevitably hear and obey the Christian gospel. Can you prove this?

      Again, I really appreciate the chance to have a dialogue with you! Thanks for taking the time.

      God bless you. If we can’t get this ironed out this side of eternity, I know God will settle it on the other side, and we will praise Jesus Christ together and be happy.

      Hope to hear from you soon!

      TFOTF

      • Reply ↓
        Phil

        Glad to have a discussion on this! I do think this is the most important question in the universe, so I don’t think we should wait until the other side of heaven to figure it out!

        “if you are accusing me of saying that you do not have to physically hear the preached (or read the written) gospel of Jesus Christ and consciously assent to it and then repent of your sins in order to be saved, I stand guilty as charged”
        – Yes, this statement is a false gospel in and of itself. Stating that people can go to heaven without repenting of their sins, or having knowledge that Jesus was the one who died and rose on their behalf does bypass the crucifixion. The point of the crucifixion was Jesus paying the penalty for the sins of those whom he foreknew. He did not pay the redemption price for all “good people”, but only those that repent.
        – Acts 2:38 – Unless you repent you will not receive the holy spirit
        – Your thesis on John 3:16 seems to be that you don’t have to believe to be saved, that being a good person is enough to save you (because Jesus’ death covered your sins). I can agree that it is God who raises dead men to life, and it is God who stirs the dead person to life, however he does stir them to belief. There are many verses that say this:
        o John 5:24, John 9:35, John 14:29, John 20:31, Acts 16:31, Romans 1:16, Romans 10:9, Romans 10:14, Hebrews 11:6, and many others
        – Galatians 2:16 says that man cannot be justified by being good, only by faith in Jesus Christ. When you say that you can be saved apart from the knowledge of Christ, by being a good person, you are saying that salvation apart from the knowledge of and faith in Christ is possible.

        [Mat 7:14 KJV] 14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
        – “Leadeth until life” is referring to “eternal life”. Vs. 21 in the same context says that many will come to Jesus on judgement day as say, we did good works! But Jesus will says, “I never knew you”.

        “based on I John 4:7, there are born again people everywhere….even if they are not professing Christians.”
        – This again is a false gospel. The context in 1 John 4 clearly says that the knowledge of Christ is required. I John 4:9 says that we live through Him (Jesus) if we are saved. 4:13 says that we know we are saved if we have the Holy Spirit. 4:15 says you must confess that “Jesus is the son of God”. You cannot be born again if you do not confess Jesus as your lord and savior. Look at 1 John 5:1, 1 John 5:5. 1 John 5:10 says explicitly if you do not believe on the son of God then you make God a liar. 5:12 – The whole book of 1 John was written so that we believe on the name of Jesus so that you know you have eternal life. Belief is imperative to our salvation, though I agree that belief is stirred/raised through an act of God.

        “Everyone who is elect will inevitably hear and obey the Christian gospel. Can you prove this?”
        – Yes. Please see Romans 10:6 through 17. “Who shall ascend into heaven?” “If you shalt confess with thy mouth the lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” “with the mouth confession is made until salvation” “how then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him on of whom they have not heard?” Yes, Romans confirms that hearing the gospel is required for salvation.

        • Reply ↓
          TFOTF

          YOU:
          – Acts 2:38 – Unless you repent you will not receive the holy spirit
          ME:
          The whole verse:
          [Act 2:38 KJV] 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
          You are using this verse to prove that you have to repent in order to be saved. So I can use the exact same logic to prove that you have to also be baptized to be saved. After all he tells them to repent AND be baptized. Do you believe you have to be baptized in order to be saved? If not, why does he tell them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

          YOU:
          Your thesis on John 3:16 seems to be that you don’t have to believe to be saved, that being a good person is enough to save you (because Jesus’ death covered your sins).
          ME:
          No, I never said being a good person is enough to save you. I don’t believe that. Here is exactly what I said, in an excerpt from the very post that we are now discussing:
          “My takeaway: People all over the world, throughout all ages, of all religions, all tribes, all colors, flawed though they may be, if they show love to their fellow human beings, they are ALREADY born of God.” I’m saying that doing good is evidence that some is already a child of God. This concept dovetails nicely with both of these passages:
          [Jhn 5:28-29 KJV] 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
          AND
          [Mat 25:31-36 KJV] 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

          Is Jesus saying in either passage that good works get you into heaven? No! He’s merely saying that good works are a marker, they are evidence that someone is already a child of God. In Matthew 25:34, he says “inherit”. This is a clue that the heaven they are about to receive is not something earned. It is something acquired via family relationship. So he talks about their good works merely as evidence of their relationship to him. And this fits very well with I John 4:7, the subject of the current post.

          YOU:
          Galatians 2:16 says that man cannot be justified by being good, only by faith in Jesus Christ. When you say that you can be saved apart from the knowledge of Christ, by being a good person, you are saying that salvation apart from the knowledge of and faith in Christ is possible.
          ME:
          No, I never said that. I never said you can be saved “by being a good person”. You are refuting an argument that was never made on this blog. I would like to hear your opinion of this argument: I John 4:7 implies that when you love your neighbor, that is evidence that you have PREVIOUSLY been born of God….whether you have heard the gospel or not. And this prior regeneration is what enables you to love your neighbor in the first place.

          YOU:
          – “Leadeth until life” is referring to “eternal life”. Vs. 21 in the same context says that many will come to Jesus on judgement day as say, we did good works! But Jesus will says, “I never knew you”.
          ME:
          OK, so 7 verses after verse 14, there is a verse which does sound like judgment day. But just ONE verse after the “judgment day”-sounding passage, we find this:
          [Mat 7:24 KJV] 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
          Is this a verse about heaven and hell as well? If so, this is works based salvation, because he’s talking about hearing his sayings and DOING them. And he uses the house metaphor, which suggests a long pattern of consistently doing God’s will. I hope you agree that when he’s using the house and storm metaphor, he’s not talking about eternal judgment. Because then you would be affirming works-based salvation, in my view. And if you agree this is not talking about eternal judgment, even though it is only ONE verse after the judgment day passage, then I ask you again: Where is your proof that verse 14 (which is 7 verses prior to the judgment day passage you mentioned) is talking about heaven and hell?

          YOU:
          – This again is a false gospel. The context in 1 John 4 clearly says that the knowledge of Christ is required. I John 4:9 says that we live through Him (Jesus) if we are saved. 4:13 says that we know we are saved if we have the Holy Spirit. 4:15 says you must confess that “Jesus is the son of God”. You cannot be born again if you do not confess Jesus as your lord and savior. Look at 1 John 5:1, 1 John 5:5. 1 John 5:10 says explicitly if you do not believe on the son of God then you make God a liar. 5:12 – The whole book of 1 John was written so that we believe on the name of Jesus so that you know you have eternal life. Belief is imperative to our salvation, though I agree that belief is stirred/raised through an act of God.
          ME:
          I John 4:9
          [1Jo 4:9 KJV] 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
          A fetus lives through its mother without knowing her name….or even having the ability to speak or reason. I don’t see how this verse makes your case.

          [1Jo 4:13 KJV] 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
          Yes, that is how WE (Christians) can know we are dwelling in God. Because he hath given us of his Spirit. This does not mean that everyone he has given his spirit to can know for sure that he is dwelling in God. This is because not everyone God has given his spirit to has heard the gospel.

          I John 4:15
          [1Jo 4:15 KJV] 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
          Confessing that Jesus is the Son of God is EVIDENCE that someone is dwelling in God. How do you make this verse say that you have to confess to get saved?

          [1Jo 5:1 KJV] 1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
          I wrote a whole blog post about this. It says that if you believe in Jesus you are already born of God. What are you trying to prove with this verse?

          [1Jo 5:5 KJV] 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
          Overcoming the world = going to heaven? Prove it.

          [1Jo 5:10 KJV] 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
          Making God a liar is bad. Adultery is bad. A married man ogling another woman is bad. Does everybody guilty of these sins go to hell? Where is your proof that everybody who makes God a liar is going to hell?

          You mentioned 5:12 but I think you meant 5:13
          [1Jo 5:13 KJV] 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
          OK so the book gives us several ways to know we are children of God. The book does not give us a SINGLE thing we need to do or say in order to legally BECOME children of God. If we believe in Jesus Christ, then we are born of God. Does this imply that if we are born of God then we believe in Jesus Christ? No. If you are a poodle then you are a canine. Does this imply that if you are a canine then you are a poodle?

          Another thing to watch out for in this book is a verse like this:
          [1Jo 5:18 KJV] 18 We know that whosoever is born of God SINNETH NOT; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
          Clearly we’re not going to go with the plain meaning of this verse. You and I are both sinners. I interpret this in light of his usage of the “little children” moniker for his audience, which is used 9 times in this book. It’s like when I tell my kids: “We don’t hit people when we are angry.” Am I claiming that no one in our family has ever done that? No. I am communicating principles of behavior to them. I am explaining default behavior for people in this family. For a child of God, the default behavior is supposed to be doing right, not sinning.

          YOU:
          “Everyone who is elect will inevitably hear and obey the Christian gospel. Can you prove this?”
          – Yes. Please see Romans 10:6 through 17. “Who shall ascend into heaven?” “If you shalt confess with thy mouth the lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” “with the mouth confession is made until salvation” “how then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him on of whom they have not heard?” Yes, Romans confirms that hearing the gospel is required for salvation.
          ME:
          [Rom 10:6 KJV] 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]:)
          This is not talking about who gets to go to heaven when they die. This is clear to me when I look up the OT reference:
          [Deu 30:11-14 KJV] 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off. 12 It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

          Not talking about eternal destinies….it’s talking about where to obtain specific INFORMATION.

          And a question for you:
          Romans 10 says if you believe and confess you will be saved. John 3:16 says if you believe you will be saved. So did these people in this verse go to heaven or hell?
          [Jhn 12:42 KJV] 42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

          And before I forget, I will note that you did not address my Cornelius argument, my Lot argument, or my Revelation argument. So I will again ask you to address those. I will also note that in your comment on the next post, you include a link that references Cornelius. This does not address MY specific Cornelius-based argument, so I am still waiting for an answer on those. How do you reconcile all those arguments with your beliefs?

          God bless and thank you again!

          TFOTF